With Laura Esmond

Laura Esmond: Welcome back to the podcast. You're with Laura Esmond. Today's conversation feels especially timely. If you've been wondering what's happening in the photography industry right now, maybe you're experiencing fewer inquiries or price sensitivity or slower bookings, typically always at the beginning of the year, you're not imagining it, and the question be photographers are asking is, how do I create stability when things always feel so uncertain?

That's why I am so excited for today's guest, joy Alaman. I think I said that right. Did I say it right, joy?

You

Joy Aleman: did.

Laura Esmond: Okay. You nailed it. She is also known as Joy. Michelle, the founder of the Photo Boss community, host of the call to both podcast, which is amazing. If you're not listening, you should. She's an educator, YouTube YouTuber, business coach.

She helps photographers build visibility and diversify their income in sustainable ways. I say that 'cause she's doing all of that and just had her third baby. She has built multiple revenue streams inside her own business and now teaches photographers how to do the same without burnout

Today we're talking about what she's hearing from photographers right now, what's actually working in this economy and how to think about diversifying income the smart way.

Joy brings such a grounded, practical perspective to this conversation, and I think you're gonna walk away feeling both clearer and calmer. So let's dive in. Welcome, joy.

Joy Aleman: Thank you so much, Laura. This is gonna be so fun.

Laura Esmond: Yeah, it's gonna be a good conversation.

So first, why don't you talk, I mean, I gave you an intro, but why don't you tell us a little bit about. Whatever you wanna tell us. You know the, I know you went from photography to coaching. I would love to hear a bit about that and what you're really teaching photographers now.

What's relevant now?

Joy Aleman: Oh, okay. We're gonna get straight into it. Okay.

Laura Esmond: Yeah.

Joy Aleman: So, yes, I help photographers amplify the businesses and the brands that they already have and diversify to the next level, big into diversification. So I live here in Tampa, Florida with my husband and our three kids, 7-year-old, 4-year-old, and nine month old.

And I homeschool my oldest so heavily relying on simplicity and diverse revenue streams in this season in my own business. And my capacity is extra limited. And so is the capacity of, I think every woman listening and a lot of my clients are right in that same boat. Um, so yeah, the question you have is what do I see changing?

What do I see working well? Which one should we start with first? What, tell me what question is like the tippy top question?

Laura Esmond: Um, I think let's start with like, what are you hearing from. What are you like? 'cause I talk to a lot of photographers as well, and I'm getting about sort of what they've seen over the last few years.

What have you, what conversations have you been having with photographers about like maybe a rollercoaster they're seeing in their business or you know, where they're having hangups with earning money?

Joy Aleman: Yes. Okay. So I am having a lot of conversations where the general theme is that everything is feeling different regardless of how long they've been in business.

They're starting to notice that people are taking longer to buy. leads are acting a little bit differently. They're needing different trust touchpoints. and. Trust is built a little slower because of, you know, the past few years of business really, has changed. The world has changed, but also the way that we buy and relate to people online isn't this automatic.

Well, you have followers and you have the blue check mark, so here's my money. It's changed and we're starting to really feel it. Um, and I, I would say that that's pretty much a tone of like, Hey, this is a concern. And at the same time, I am seeing photographers still win and I'm seeing photographers get really extra scrappy about how they're building that trust, building a personal brand, and diversifying their revenue so that they can fill the gaps during what is very normal ups and downs that we experience in the economy and in business.

Laura Esmond: It is really normal. It, uh, it does our, our industry absolutely gets impacted by the economy. I mean, we're, we are considered a, I always get very careful people know about using the word luxury photographer, but the fact is we are in a luxury business. If you define luxury as something that you don't need to survive, you know, it is, it is not something that people have to have.

And, and so we are impacted by the economy, presidential elections and that sort of up and down cycle. And, and that's one of the reasons I was really excited to talk to you because you are so focused on diversifying and realizing. Maybe I shouldn't put all of my eggs in one basket. Maybe I need to have a few different things.

And actually, before I ask another question here, I have to say this, I was thinking about this earlier before, uh, when you and I were just chatting about, um, doing this interview was, I remember years ago, someone, I, it was prob, I've got a few people in my life who do like mergers and acquisitions for businesses, right?

Like they're on the banking side or the legal side. And, and I remember overhearing conversation because that, that is way over my head. I don't really understand that.

Joy Aleman: Oh.

Laura Esmond: So, but I remember, um, there being a conversation around you, like if you're gonna, if a, if a business is looking at buying another business and in that business that they're looking at buying.

They have one client or one job that's driving, let's say 60 or 70% of their revenue, it's not a viable business. They don't wanna buy that because if something happens to that one revenue stream, they're sunk. And I always think about us as photographers that we rely so heavily on, sometimes even niching down into, like, I only photograph newborn, right?

Only photograph family. And, and diversifying really just opens up these different revenue streams and you've become kind of a, a master at this, which is super cool. So we're gonna be going into that now, one thing that you talked about that I like, I wrote it down, like trust touchpoints.

Joy Aleman: Mm-hmm.

Laura Esmond: Before we go on, will you, will you kind of like, if you can, can you tell me a bit more about what you mean by trust touch points?

Because that just triggered me in the most beautiful way.

Joy Aleman: I like talking about this because I do think that we are just impatient sometimes with the way that we want other people to buy, and buyers are gonna have different personalities and there's different buyer types. Some people are going to be more analytical.

They literally will want. All the information. Some people are just very intuitive. They like meet you somewhere and they're like, okay, perfect. Take my credit card. And we kind of wish that everybody could just be this like fast moving intuitive buyer, but we need to appreciate there's variance and then tailor our content to that person and, and really give people different ways to have those trust touchpoints with us.

I also think trust, just like in any relationship, I think we forget this in business, you need to spend time with people like in order, I think I read this, this quote recently about becoming friends with someone and how many hours you have to spend with somebody to get to that point where like you can just be quiet and not have to fill every moment.

And it's just a really good reminder that at the end of the day, it is about time spent. Whether they're listening to a podcast with you or looking at your reels, or consuming your blog or your newsletter, you have got to realize that as well, crafted as those things can be, people are going to need many points before they're ready to say yes unless you have these like.

What I like to call, like big trust injections where it's like the referral from somebody that they already trust, right? Like when, if Laura's like, Hey, I really, really trust this person, they just revamped my whole website. Can I put you in touch with them? We're like five steps ahead because I know you, I met you in real life.

Like we connected in, in Nashville, what, like three years ago? So you, you and I probably built a trust connection a little bit faster because we, you know, I'm a real person at the end of the day, and I know you're like, I sat across the table from you at a restaurant and you were mapping out things on the, on the map on the top of the paper.

It like table topper. Um, I have a video of that. We should throw that in your blog post. But like, you know, you, you, you have to remember that. And so I think. Really looking at your personal brand and your client journey, giving people opportunity to spend some time with you, even virtually. This is really important and I think, you know, we, we assume this of content creators and educators and you know, like now you're doing this podcast, which is incredible.

Like imagine the minutes spent with you, the opportunity that you're giving people. But I think as photographers it's quick to forget that and to think, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put a bunch of images up that don't have my voice, don't have my face, don't really have a resounding opinion of any kind.

They're just beautiful work and I think that is starting to really disappear. You're not gonna stick, the attention isn't gonna be there.

Laura Esmond: Oh gosh. That, that really aligns with, um, how when I am coaching people on marketing, I am such a, um, get in your community kind of person. I really believe, especially in this environment where, you know, we don't have the surplus of money being given by the government as we had post COVID and we had this big boom at that point and people were just booking and they had less to do.

They weren't traveling as much, and they could just book, book, book, book, book. And, and we really got to enjoy that. But that was really just a moment. It was just a season. Mm-hmm. In our economy. And I feel like right now, I, oh gosh. That you're like lighting up all these points of my brain of thinking about, okay, I really believe in getting in your community, meeting people cre creating moments where you can be face to face to make those trust touch points, which I love.

I, I will like, I think you need to like trademark that. Put a little t up. Okay. I love it. Or I'll always be like your trust touchpoint by joy. By joy, Michelle by joy. Because I like wanted, I like, love that. But um. I think also what you're talking about is all, it is really also going into social media and taking what has just been just post and pray sort of.

Right. We used to say that all the time. Like I just post and pray like that's my marketing scheme. Yeah. And really saying, no, I'm just gonna go face to camera sometimes and it's not going to be polished and perfect. I'm just gonna show me, and maybe when I'm responding to an inquiry, I'm going to make a phone call or when I, or I'm gonna have a video that I give to people walking them through my pricing guide so that they can really hear me and connect with me.

Joy Aleman: Yes. And, and in a lot of cases, those things that you mentioned, they're more in our head in terms of difficulty. They actually could even take less time than sitting there and trying to craft the perfect response email, just going face to camera or hitting the, the voice response and being like, oh my gosh, I'm, you know, if you can't get back to someone right away being like, oh, I just picked my kids up.

I have a, uh, I'm gonna send you my, my pricing whenever I get home. I'm super excited to hear more about what you're looking, it's like now you're a human. That's like, your voice is part of your trademark. And I say this to people all the time, you know, I'm like, how many people are responding with a custom video?

Not very many. Do we want attention right now? Are we in an atten attention economy? Yes.

Laura Esmond: Yeah.

Joy Aleman: We have to get back to the stuff like even meeting in real life, it's like, man, you can bang your head up against the wall and try to come up with like 10 new blog posts, or you could split your time, go to something in real life.

Yes. Blog, yes. SEO. But like imagine you meet somebody and they, they connect you and they know people. Yes, yes. And now you're a real person. It's like, and it's really hard to quantify that too.

Laura Esmond: Yeah.

Joy Aleman: Uh, and it just, it's such a good reminder. I'm glad you said that because it's still so relevant.

Laura Esmond: It is a hard quantifier because you don't, I mean, unless you're lit, unless you're really, really good about tracking every single referral that comes in.

But my business, if I, if I look at my business in the last 20 years, it was 100% built from meeting one person who then introduced me to one person, and that person might have introduced me to three. And then out of those three people, one introduced me to five. And, and it just kind of spiderwebs from there.

And, and yeah, it's great.

Joy Aleman: You never know what it's, what it will lead to. You just know it will lead to something, especially when you show up and you show up consistently and you show up generously. Like, I remember driving. An hour both ways easily to stylize shoots and saying, man, I hope like the florist shows up really well today.

I hope everybody does what they said they were gonna do. And those end up being like the people that I do business with, that I still talk to, to this day, but you don't know. There's no guarantee. Right. So yeah, it is. It is like a little bit of a faith stuff. You're like, I'm just gonna show up and believe that these are gonna be incredible business resources.

Mm-hmm. Like I'll be a resource to them. They'll be a resource to me.

Laura Esmond: Yeah, but you make a good point though. There is no, there is no marketing effort. That's a guarantee. There's not, none of them are. And for, to me, I feel like there are so few people who are really willing to get out from behind their computer and out from behind their phone and actually take a minute to go into their community and, you know, join a networking group.

You know, there's so many, like women in business who are trying to connect in your community and, and meeting them,

Joy Aleman: Yeah. Yeah. And I often think, you know, like I, when I got started on YouTube, I thought the same thing. If it's a little harder and not everybody's doing it, I'm gonna go ahead and do it because I would rather be in a way less crowded place. 'cause all I hear is, it's oversaturated. It's oversaturated. I'm like, the, the second, third, and fourth mile are not oversaturated.

People don't wanna go the extra mile. So be that person. Trust me, there's way less of us on the other side of like showing up in real life and going to a, a good referral partner and saying, Hey, do you, do you have a photographer that you refer your moms to? Or whatever it is. You'd be surprised how few people actually go to a brick and mortar and say, here's my pamphlet, here's the, you know, I just would love to like meet and connect with people in my community.

Those relationships do go a long way.

Laura Esmond: Yeah, they really do. Okay, let's dive back into diversification. So when you, when you are talking about diversifying income, because you and I, I had like kind of different things in my head when you and I first started talking about this. So when you talk about diversifying income, what, what counts to you? Like what, tell me what you mean by diversifying your income.

Joy Aleman: Oh my gosh. Okay. I love this topic because I think we all have an idea of what it could look like. And I think that that opens to, to borrow your term, like this whole spider web of opportunity. And I think if, if anyone is making content, which I think we all are, we are very, very likely leaving money on the table if we are not venturing into this.

To some degree. And I think the low hanging fruit and the place where I started diversifying my income was in affiliate marketing. And affiliate marketing is like a whole world that I think people think is for influencers, but I think it can be for anyone with a personal brand who's making content.

Because when you affiliate market, anyone can give you money and not just your customers. So I, and I'll, I'll back it up to like a story whenever this became real to me. So I started using some affiliate links in some of the things that I was doing when I was blogging. Um, when I would show up in my newsletter, uh, I was creating some YouTube videos.

I mean, this is like the very beginning. And I started talking a little bit about when it was relevant, when it was something I would already talk about or somebody was asking me questions about, you know, how I was running my business or outfits maybe for what they should wear to a shoot. I started using affiliate links and.

It. I, I kind of forgot that I did this for a little while 'cause I just like put it there and just, you know, we're doing a lot of things in business. I don't know if anybody else feels this way where it's like I'm wearing a lot of hats. I don't even know. Yes. What I've been working on lately. But I was in labor with my oldest with Clara and I was on my phone tracking a contraction and I started getting payment notifications from an affiliate and I was like, oh, okay, that's cool.

And I like didn't even really think about it. 'cause I was trying to track this contraction. But then after the like, dust settled and I had my baby, I was like, oh, that was really cool. I think I made like $600 in labor. Like, that was really cool. And I don't have to serve that client. I don't have to photograph them, I don't have to edit.

I, I can just be on maternity leave. And I was like. We gotta do more of that. Where did they come from? How did we, and I just, where can I take this? And it really sparked something in me to say, I don't need to be an influencer and, you know, with an outfit, try-on if I don't want to. Mm-hmm. I could actually make hundreds and then eventually thousands per month just with affiliate marketing.

that was a few years ago. I've made over a hundred thousand dollars on only affiliate marketing in my business as just one of many revenue streams. And it, so it's something that I love to talk about and teach on. And I do have a little, um, like a freebie starter guide. Um, for anybody listening, if they're like, well, what would I, how would I start?

I've got you.

Laura Esmond: Okay. Yeah, and we'll definitely drop that in the show notes. and I'll, I'll send it in the email too. I've got a handful of questions here, so

Joy Aleman: Love it.

Laura Esmond: My experience with my, the only thing I know about affiliate marketing, and so I'm really excited to hear more about this.

I'm like, a hundred thousand dollars. That's incredible. And I know you have a decent sized audience, so I have a few questions. Number one, I have, um, I have a really, really good friend who runs a, a large Instagram account. She's got like a half a million followers and she does a lot of Amazon work and, makes like 30 cents when somebody, when somebody buys something, right?

And, and she has to do a lot of, um, Facebook ads and this sort of thing to really keep that, oh wow. Engine moving, right? There's a lot of paid to play for her. And she, that's where she learned she could really grow her business, but that's like those little, like micro sales that she's making on Amazon.

And, and so. A while ago, I was like, well, I mean, I suggest things to people. So I set up an Amazon affiliate account and people probably see that in the email, like, I'll recommend things, but I kind of do it just because I want my email to be interesting. I want you guys to be like, oh, what's something that Laura liked?

Right. I don't really make money off of it. Do you wanna know how much money I made in the last 30 days from Amazon?

Joy Aleman: I need to know.

Laura Esmond: $2 and 32 cents.

Joy Aleman: It's your $2, Laura.

Laura Esmond: Yeah. I mean, I don't even have Amazon set up to actually pay me.

So I'm really curious. Yeah. What, and, and also knowing from my friend, like she is, she is selling things on a daily basis three or four times a day. So there's an engine behind that. So I wanna hear from you what is, what is affiliate for Joy?

Like what does that mean? And like what's the

Joy Aleman: potential

Laura Esmond: for photographers?

Joy Aleman: So I think that is one way to do it. And if that works for her, amazing. But I have no interest in talking about something actively every single day. What I do is combine evergreen content with higher payouts. So your affiliate payouts.

This is a very important detail of affiliate marketing. Choosing the right partners to align yourself with is going to be a make or break detail. I still use Amazon because I buy stuff off Amazon and I'm gonna talk about Amazon things. However, I might make $150 for like an Amazon payout, or like when I talk about gear and there's higher level items and the payout actually adds up to be something significant.

It can be more than that, but the majority of what I love is I like to talk about software or people's courses, or even be an affiliate for other service providers. And affiliate payout is really just. Uh, like a commission for talking about something, anything. So anytime there's something that I don't technically have a solution for, but I'm facilitating the sale, I'm gonna try to make a little bit of something like, why would I talk about that unless I'm gonna make that money.

Laura Esmond: Hmm.

Joy Aleman: Another really important detail with affiliate marketing is there are one-time payouts and there are recurring payouts. So if you can build your recurring payouts, then you might get someone to buy something from a company that you talk about and you're like, Hey, this is where I send emails from, or this is where I am, you know, just finding my backdrops for my studio, or whatever it is.

When they are recurring payouts, you get paid every single month for any future sales from that client. Um, so really understanding the model of what you're gonna be dedicating your time to. Is another big piece of this. And so I, I do talk about that more in Affiliate Boss, which is my course. Um, but I also think the other thing is like knowing, finding that like beautiful mashup between what you already do and what you already know, what your audience is desiring, and an affiliate program.

So an affiliate could be, you know, they could have a nice payout. I get pitched all the time in my inbox. They'll be like, do you wanna be an affiliate for this random thing? But if it doesn't fit my world and the what content my people are expecting from me, it's not gonna convert at all. It, it doesn't matter if the payout is a thousand dollars per sale because it just doesn't match.

So I think there's also an alignment thing to take into consideration as well.

Laura Esmond: Okay. So that, this is all really fascinating. So, 'cause again, my, my only experience with affiliate is just, you know, my friend doing the Amazon thing but it sounds like. Multiple places that, that you can actually look at where it's just a completely different system than like a, like to know or Amazon Yes.

And that sort of thing. That's cool.

Joy Aleman: So

Laura Esmond: let's say somebody is only, you know, I don't know, they're, they've been in business for two or three years, they have maybe a smaller audience and they're like, well, you know, I don't have a big audience. What could they do?

Like how would you suggest to them to get started in something like affiliate? Or is it something that they should start thinking about moving in that direction? Or is that something that they could get started in soon?

Joy Aleman: Yeah, I think the idea of having a large audience.

Isn't even needed. Um, because what we're doing is you already have some existing ways that you're onboarding clients, that you're creating touchpoint with them. And there's probably opportunity right now to leverage affiliate marketing and what you're doing. But over overall, if this is a direction that somebody wants to go and they're thinking like, I would love to be able to make money without having to book another client, one great next step is to build your brand authority just in general, showing up as a personal brand.

Is so important and gives you optionality for the future because people will be coming to you for what you know, not just what you do. And when you start to be known as someone who provides value and has a community and answers questions, the world will open up to you in terms of, well, where could you partner with somebody on an affiliate deal?

Or something like that. But then you start to realize like you could have your own offers, you could have your own downloads, um, you could have brand deals. And like, that's not something I was thinking when I was initially developing a personal brand and building brand authority, but it's absolutely my reality now.

Laura Esmond: I know there a lot of photographers take the angle of going into education, and so then the affiliates that you're looking at are going to be, photography based, you're looking at maybe working with CRMs things like that.

Right?

Joy Aleman: Right.

Laura Esmond: What if you are a photographer and you have grown an account based solely on your local market, maybe people a little outside your local market that are all moms. Mm-hmm. How would you recommend them really capturing that audience and moving that into affiliate?

Joy Aleman: I love this. I did have a client that is doing exactly this recently, and in fact, because she doesn't have a course, she doesn't really wanna educate at this moment, maybe one day.

Mm-hmm. But right now she's largely photographing families. And she came to me because she was like, Hey, I have these blog posts that are taking off every fall about what to wear. Like why do I have thousands and thousands of people coming to my Well, yes. She knows why. 'cause she did an excellent job with SEO.

She was like, but I'm not able to like. Photograph all of these people. What if they are buying these outfits? So we work together and, specifically on some of her outfit based blog posts. And so every fall she gets these affiliate payouts from Amazon, but it's good size payouts because she has worked really hard on the blog side of things.

And then, like you were saying, sometimes, um, we work really hard to build these communities of moms and you have just this one offer for them. But I think being, thinking of your community as like. Okay, well, what else could I serve them with? What other complimentary things would these moms be, you know, wanting to buy and they're interested in more than just your photography services?

So yeah, I think without going into education, it's, it's absolutely an option. Um, and then even I think another underutilized area for some people is, uh, like their newsletter. They have an email newsletter. And you, as you bring people into your world and you introduce them to you and the things that you already love, you might be somebody that has a walking pad in your office that you're really into fitness or health.

That is an absolute opportunity 'cause you're already talking about it. If it's something you're already talking about in your brand, it is not off brand to then say, well here's what I use for my red light therapy. Like, here's what I use for this and that, and it can just be a fun little get to know me type.

Section of your content. We already have that built into our content pillars in our minds. So whatever's happening to get people into your world to understand who you are as the creative or as the artist, there's a really natural like, okay, well then you might as well just give them a link that pays you.

'cause I think a lot of times we are getting asked for links of things like, you know, all the time in my stories, people will be like, well, do you have a link for that? And still today I am like, no I don't. I gotta go get it. Let me generate this link so that I can get paid. 'cause why would I be selling things like this chair behind me unless I'm gonna actually get a little kickback.

So I think you really do start to. See everything as a potential for making income instead of just, okay, I only make money when I'm in studio with somebody, when I'm actually photographing somebody. It really starts to like expand your mind to like, oh, I, I gotta make money helping these moms get ready for their session.

Mm-hmm. Like, what if as I'm helping them and they're literally being brought through this whole process, I'm, I'm actually making money in, in the process as well. Um, and I think that like, that's a really cool way to look at it too, is. I started seeing, like when I started making content, I realized not all of these people are gonna work with me, but a lot of them might buy from a link, and then at least it's not okay.

99% of people don't pay me. Now it's like, okay, what if I could make money from like half of my audience without ever having to actually photograph half of my audience?

Laura Esmond: Right.

Joy Aleman: So I think it's just a, it's a mindset shift for sure.

Laura Esmond: Yeah, it absolutely is. And I, a couple of things there is that one, it goes back to the conversation that we had about creating trust, right?

Mm-hmm. Like when we have a, uh, as photographers, we, we have to have a personal brand.

Joy Aleman: Yeah.

Laura Esmond: You know, just like you talked about before, it, we, they have to feel like they, they know us, and, and they are going to trust us to sit with their family. They're gonna trust us with their children. All of those pieces then play into having, I guess you would say like a, a lifestyle brand also.

Mm-hmm. That once they've connected with you as a photographer and your work, then you can start to connect those pieces of like, you know, here's how I would style for a session. Here's also what I'm wearing when I go to the farmer's market with the kids on Saturday. Here's what I'm wearing to church on Sunday.

Here's, um, you know, my fa like you said, my favorite red light therapy. Or, and then so how hard do you think it is to, like, how much time do you think somebody really needs to dedicate to growing that part of their bi the business? Like what's the, what's sort of the, I dunno if logistical is the right word, but like, what's the.

The footwork behind growing something like that and making it, making that stick and making it work. Because as you know, like we're moms and you talked about this before. Yeah. There's only so much time that we have to dedicate to work during the week, and so now we're talking about like, here's a whole other revenue stream that you can have.

Yeah. I will say before you answer that, obviously this revenue stream probably takes legwork to get started, but once it does, you're, you're now making money while you're not working.

Joy Aleman: Yeah. So,

Laura Esmond: so it's worth it in the end, but like, what does that really look like for somebody to do?

Joy Aleman: Yeah, well, I mean, the actual time that it takes to become an affiliate, like generate an affiliate link with a company is very minimal.

I would say the, the large majority of the time you spend is in the content creation. Mm-hmm. Which is why I always come back to telling photographers, like, if you are creating content already and you're not building this in, then there is money left on the table, I can guarantee you. Um, so I would say it's pretty minimal, but if you're not making content, then you're gonna spend a few more hours a week.

It's gonna be like, okay, well now we're blogging and now we're really thinking like, let me show my face on stories. So it depends where you're at currently, like that. I will be completely honest. It just depends where you're at currently. But I would say for me, it just became the, like when you're sitting down to blog and then you realize, oh, I need to actually change the alt text.

I need to actually. Go in and make a few tweaks so that Google knows what I'm saying.

Laura Esmond: Mm-hmm.

Joy Aleman: It's kind of like that. You just make sure that when you're blogging, you've taken some time to put some thought into the, the key words that you put on the page. Mm-hmm. Now we're taking an extra five minutes to ask, did we use an affiliate link?

Could I add an affiliate link? Like, or could I just send them to my favorites things page? 'cause I already optimized that page. I took two or three hours to set it up, but now I just redirect everyone there. Right. I know a good example of this. My, um. I have a, a, a client that she has a studio and she works with lots of babies, um, lots of moms, lots of babies, some families, but she's just really, really, really wonderful with newborns.

And she has a very active blog and she was putting some of her baby favorites. Like, these are my, this is my favorite sound machine. This is my favorite swaddle. This is my favorite. And so like, moms are already coming to her blog to decide like, should I come to your studio? Should you photograph me? But now she's like, oh, I wanna know, like, you literally wrap up babies and keep them happy for a living.

Please tell me what you're using to shush this baby. Like, what are your favorites? What are your hacks in your tips? And so she's finding like a way to. Not only leverage the business that she already has as a service provider, but then also kind of creatively thinking like, oh, well I might as well, like, as I'm being of service, make a little bit of money too.

Laura Esmond: Yeah.

Joy Aleman: So I hope that answers your question.

Laura Esmond: Yeah, no, I think it does. Absolutely. I like the comparison of like the, the blog and really thinking about, you know, I, I don't like to put a lot of noise out there. I end up not spending a lot of time on social media because I, I am, I should spend more, I am the worst about this, but

I want whatever I put out there, I want it to feel either impactful or relevant or useful or something. I don't like to just put noise out there when you were talking about the blog and being really intentional about creating. we should be really intentional about what we're creating and spend a bit more time on it.

So it's more about quality versus quantity. And so if we're in that frame of mind of I want to create something that's really, really high quality, then I am going to create a one single blog post that's, you know, doesn't mean it needs to be super long, but I'm going to make sure that the whatever, all the content in there is rich and informative and useful.

And so instead of trying to, you know, post 20 times this month, maybe I'm just gonna do a few posts, but they are. Really rich and and useful.

Joy Aleman: I completely agree. I couldn't agree with you more, and I don't think we need the volume of content that sometimes we believe we do. Um, a lot of times that just comes from a scarce and false idea that we have to show up with something new and groundbreaking when really, like you're saying, if we were to slow down and think about what would make this post feel relevant.

Even if someone read it in six months or 12 months. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of your content can still be evergreen and could still be making you money years down the road, you know, if we're gonna even incorporate other platforms like Pinterest can be a really great Oh,

Laura Esmond: I was just going to ask you about Pinterest that

Joy Aleman: Yes.

Yes. Because then you have these blog posts that sometimes they hear like a little bit of a slow accumulation in the beginning, and then all of a sudden I start to see, wow, this is actually taking off. And um, I see some traction happening. Mm-hmm. And then the same thing happens on Pinterest, and so then you see a pin and it really starts taking off.

But that's exactly what I want. I want to be literally living my life out. At the park with my kids or at the beach or just enjoying like the sunshine. And I want people to be reading something that I wrote years ago falling down this like journey of like getting what they need. And maybe they're shopping, maybe it's the middle of the night and they're like, oh, that sounds great.

I'm gonna add that to cart. I'm gonna join your email list. Like you bring them into this ecosystem of your brand. But that's exactly what's possible when you are thinking about content in a little bit more of like an evergreen capacity. I love social media. I do think that it is a necessary evil for, for business to some extent.

But I do not attribute social media to any of my success when it comes to affiliate marketing in particular. Hmm. Um, which I actually think is, is like a good thing. 'cause I just, I'm not the most consistent. Sometimes I'll just drop off and then like reappear. However, because I've built these pieces of content that are evergreen.

I can consistently get payouts.

Laura Esmond: Mm-hmm. Yeah. one of the things that I was thinking about with Pinterest is like when you post something on social media, on Instagram, like you talked about this whole idea of scarcity and, you know, we feel like we're missing out and it creates this terrible feeling of fomo and I better hurry up and post something, but it has like a 24 hour lifespan.

Joy Aleman: Yeah. I

Laura Esmond: don't love that. But we, but yet psychologically, you know, like there are people we all know from whatever that movie was years ago that they have, they created Instagram. Now, I, I don't, I don't wanna bash Instagram. B Instagram is very useful for what it's useful for, but mm-hmm. Um, I think it also created this psychological, uh, pull that.

Makes us spend an off balance amount of time on it. Yeah. And, and thinking about the posts and what we're gonna say in the posts and what are the posts gonna look like and spending all this time batching. And I, and I do think that it's useful and it is can be a smart place for people to spend their time in business, but then when you think about like a blog post and Pinterest and, you know,

there's an actual lifespan there. Same with like, again, full circle, meeting people in person and, and realizing like, that's a, that is a lifelong relationship that you can establish with that one person who can then keep sending you business.

So really thinking about our business in the sense of, you know, what are, where are the places that I can spend time that are going to create depth versus kind of just spreading a little thin, ice over a business like Instagram feels really thin to me. Mm-hmm. Whereas blog posts, affiliates, meeting people in person, Pinterest, you know, all of those things that we've talked about are very deep and long running work for our business.

Joy Aleman: Yeah. Yeah. And I think they're a necessary part of just building the trust, like to bring it back to the beginning.

Laura Esmond: Mm-hmm.

Joy Aleman: We were talking about that trust needs to be built and if you, you don't necessarily need to have lots of something in order to have the trust be built in the quality. Like you're talking about depth, like these are rich posts.

Right. And that is absolutely true. Absolutely.

Laura Esmond: Yeah.

So this has all been really, really fascinating for me. I think not only for my business as a coach, but also for people to think about whether you're new in the business or you've been in business for a while, we have access to so much more in our business than we think about as a photographer.

You know, we're creating content where in front of an ideal audience all the time, we're seeking an ideal audience. They have things that they want to buy outside of just our services. So this is really. I'm like, I'm gonna have so much to journal about tonight for my own business. I wanna hear about what it is you really have to, to offer.

I will say I, I need to tell everybody this. I actually worked with Joy a couple of years ago when I was building my education business. Joy and I met in Nashville at a, at a photography conference. We ended up going to lunch with a mutual friend of ours, Kayla and or dinner, and, and we just got into this like really wonderful conversation and I was like, I like, can you guys stay up until 2:00 AM But you guys were both like.

Moms of young children. I was like, let's just stay up and talk.

Joy Aleman: I still can't hang. I still,

Laura Esmond: and honestly, I really can't either. But, um, we had such a great conversation. And then later on, a couple months later, I ended up hiring Joy to just help me get my head on straight when it came to growing my education business because there are, you can just get spun in so many different directions and she helped me just, you know, stay the course and, and think about what I was doing and I got so many wonderful things.

What are you doing now? We didn't talk about affiliates then. Like what are you doing now to support photographers and creatives? 'cause I know you don't just work with photographers, right?

Joy Aleman: Yeah. Majority photographers. Okay. But definitely service-based creatives. So I do work with calligraphers and some other creatives.

Cool. That I just love because there's so much overlap there. Yeah.

Laura Esmond: Mm-hmm.

Joy Aleman: Okay. So since working together, um, I do still coach, of course coaching has my heart. Um, but I do have a newer program called Affiliate Boss, which has. Even more nerding out on all of the affiliate things, um, including more about automations and just saving time because I'm all about saving time.

And in addition to that, I have a couple of other courses that are very much for the photographer, getting their start, taking their business a little more seriously. So Hobby to Pro toolkit, some tools and templates. And I also have Pitch Power. So kind of a, a bridge between both of these worlds, um, of the photographer, but also someone wanting to get a little more visibility, maybe step into education.

A lot of what comes along with that is pitching and just getting yourself out there and getting those collaborations and making those relationships. Um, and so all of this is available on my website, um, at Join Michelle Co. And then, yeah, just been focusing on my podcast. I love podcasting. I feel like this is like such a fun way to connect with people and share ideas and teach.

And right now I'm in a season where. I'm not doing a ton of speaking and traveling and, and getting around 'cause I have a, a baby. Um, and so this is like a way for me to feel like I'm getting out and I'm doing something. Um, but it's been so fun. Yeah. And I'm so glad you're doing this podcast 'cause it's, it is such a wealth of information.

I have loved listening.

Laura Esmond: Oh, thank you. It's been fun to do. It's like, it's challenging to keep up with every week in a way. Um, oh my gosh. Yeah. In ways, you know, you're like, what am I gonna talk about this week? But there's always something

And I think you're right, it does give people an ability to. To sort of experience me before hiring me and be like, oh yeah, you know, I think we, we do hire people based on,

when people can hear your voice and hear your inflection and just see you smile and talk, like it's a totally different level than just seeing a 2D person or seeing not seeing them at all. And when people get to experience you, they're far more likely to, to either, what is it that we always talk about with branding?

You want to either repel or attract, right?

Joy Aleman: Yeah.

Laura Esmond: you're either attracting somebody or repelling them, which is good.

you create really engaged people. Yes, with you're connecting with the all your people that you're going to truly attract, you know, and the people are like, I'm not into it. Like, that's fine. You don't need them for your engagement. You need the people that you're going to attract.

So

Joy Aleman: Yeah. You're so right. And we didn't even touch on ai, but I think that with the emergence of AI becoming so mainstream that you need to be on video even more, because I think people are starting to know your copy might not even be written by you. They're, they're seeing one thing. Yeah. And then I think we've all had an experience where we hired somebody and we're like, wow, you're not at all like, I thought you'd be.

So imagine the importance of what you're selling and the intimacy of an experience of photographing somebody for any of these life milestones of how important that is to them and the money that they're putting into it. So I'm, I'm pretty careful now 'cause I know, and I can see the Chachi pt, you know, we can, you can like read it and you're like, so.

What do you think? You know, like,

Laura Esmond: right,

Joy Aleman: right. Exactly. That's, that's where there's, it always comes back to like, it really, really helps to build the trust and the connection for sure.

Laura Esmond: Yes, yes. Yeah, I agree. Okay. So those are lots of tools that you have out there for people. That's amazing.

So, to wrap up, I've got kind of a, a challenging question for you. If someone listening is stressed currently about the economy, you know, they're just sort of like, again, again, I'm, I have another Q1 that's kind of slow. What is the most stabilizing next step that they can take in their business to, to help create some momentum?

Like what should that next step be while things are slow?

Joy Aleman: So something that comforts me when I think about being slow, because I still experience slow seasons, is that even in a dip, an economic dip, someone is always winning. Not everyone is struggling, even though in our world it can feel like we're constantly being told, I can't afford you.

I, I, you know, I wanna get pictures, but I can't afford you. Just reminding you, not everybody is feeling that, and that's just a fact that there is. Like a separation between how each dip affects different people. So getting outside of that belief is really important for me. And you need to keep taking action because clarity actually comes from action.

So a lot of times we think we're gonna think our way to a really, really amazing breakthrough strategy, but really we need to get out. And I love that you were saying you gotta go meet some people. You gotta go to stuff. So like if it's been a minute since you've posted a video, if it's been a minute since you went to a networking event and you're still feeling unsure, this is the perfect time to make yourself do it.

Uh, because. Action is what breeds the clarity and it staying in motion is so important because that object at rest is gonna stay at rest. And I think the longer we hem and haw over what I should post, it's like ripping off the bandaid. Post anything, post something. 'cause it gets the, it gets bigger in your mind.

Just don't let it get bigger. Just keep being that person that's like, I'm still gonna meet people. That person said they can't afford me. Okay. Someone else can I, I promise you someone else can.

Laura Esmond: Oh, that is such good advice, joy. This is why I love talking to you. Thank you. That was, that was wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

I will have all of your information, all of your links in the show notes, so if anybody is interested in checking out all these different, um, ways that you could work with Joy, uh, you can see her YouTube channel and what is, uh, they can find you, join Michelle on YouTube and then, um, for her podcast is called, called to Both, which is relevant for if you feel called to both motherhood and work.

Uh, it's how to balance those two things, which she does beautifully with her three kids at home and manages so many different things and keeps them the priority. So there's a lot that, uh, we can all learn from Joy. So thank you so much for being here.

Joy Aleman: Thank you. This has been so fun.

Laura Esmond: Yeah, I appreciate it.

Joy Aleman: Okay,

Laura Esmond: bye.