With Laura Esmond

Eps006-KateMarie
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Kate Marie, portrait. I'm so excited to have you here.

Hi. Yeah. Thank you for joining me. One of my first people that I'm going to interview. Thanks for, that's a lot of trust.

I trust you with my life. I don't know if I would do that, but I appreciate it. So no one can see this, but you guys, we both have on these cute little polo hats that Laura Gattis told us that we had to buy. She likes to drop things. She made us, yeah,

Laura likes to drop us texts every now and then to tell us about things she's buying and suddenly I go from I am dedicated to work and like getting things done to now I'm shopping online all because of Laura's influence all the time.

All the time. We need nothing until she sends us a text. Okay. Nothing. I wanted for absolutely nothing until suddenly she reached out. Right? I mean, like the anthropology sale. I had already looked and I didn't need anything. And then she starts sending like the actual links. Yeah. And I'm like, oh wait, of like, the things that we need do, need that.

Yeah. But that's trust too, right? Like I think we just really trust her. Yeah. Her like vision on styling. I will. I'm, I think I'm trying to set up a time to interview her, but she's so busy with life right now, but she, I I, I just, I don't know if you remember this, but one day, either me or you sent her a text, like the three of us sent a text and we're like, we need help with an outfit.

And she was like, hold on, let me go grab my cape. And literally sent that to us and I just laughed. I think it must have been you. And then she just immediately starts sending all of these links. I think it was like shoes or something, I don't know. Yes. And yeah. And it's like, whatever you think, I don't even know.

I, I suddenly, if I'm around her, I suddenly don't even know my style anymore. I, I know. Because she's just like, so effortlessly cool. Yeah. She can like roll in right from a workout and yeah, she might be a little bit sweaty, but she's just like, she just looks cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have that, but we do have our hats now, so I think that's helping us.

We're cool now. Yeah. If anybody wants the hat, it's a polo hat that we got at Dillards. It's like cream on sale. Cream and Yeah, on sale. Yeah. It was like $30. I think we paid more for shipping. Yeah. So Kate, enough about Laura, for goodness sakes. We could just talk about her all day, but she's gonna laugh about this so hard.

She's gonna die if she to it. I'm really excited to talk to you because, well, I mean, I know I, I am one of the very lucky people in the world that gets to chat with you all the time and hit you up on text. And first let me go into this. Kate and I met at, Elizabeth Messina workshop in California.

This was, I think like three or four years ago now. I don't, not even sure. I think it was, was it before COVID or was it like the year after? Right after. I think it was 2021. So I think 2020, nothing happened. And I think we'd have to go back and look at timestamps on photos. Okay. Thing. And then the next year, Gaddis came with it.

Gaddis came. Yeah. And so, and I remember Kate sitting next to me and and you were just, you know, like yourself, like you're just sweet and gentle and kind and, and humble and, and then I remember later seeing your images and being like, what? Like, because you did this really beautiful post on just a handful of the images that you got.

And I think most of us in the room just kind of shot what we saw, like in that moment. Whereas you stepped in and you were like, you just got all these really gorgeous photos and you had already reached out to me on Instagram to be like, Hey, it was nice to meet you and. I was at a pivotal moment in my career where I was trying to like make a pretty big shift, but I wasn't really ready to do it.

And I was asking you lots of questions about your business and your life and whatever, and we just connected. Yeah. And I remember we were doing introductions and you are like, I shoot 1000 sessions a year thousand, but Yeah. And I'm sitting in like, I shot 25 sessions last year. Yeah. And you like downplayed it.

And Elizabeth thankfully was like, don't you dare downplay what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. It was really sweet. But yeah, I mean I was running this like volume business. I wasn't shooting 600 sessions a year, but me and my team were, and it was a lot. It was a lot of work.

I didn't put my own thought behind it about like, what would I really want the outcome to be? How do I wanna show up to my business every day? What do I want the process of building this business to feel like? Right. And that's actually a great segue 'cause one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about was, and I know we all struggle, and I wanna hear about those struggles too.

there is no business that just appears overnight. Right. It's, it's growth, it's dedication, it's, but I feel like you, you've been, what was that? Intentionality. A lot of intentionality too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, so that, exactly. I think setting an, setting an intention for our business and then putting our attention on it, right?

So like that then grows from intention to attention. And then, and then that process of showing up every day and being like, this is, this is what I'm building. I have an arrow, like my arrow's pointed. And I feel like you've always been, and I don't know if you've always been, but I feel like you are good at loving the process of your business and showing up for it and, and creating, whenever I've sat down with you, when we're doing the untethered workshop, which we'll probably talk about more later, but me, Kate, and Laura, all do a, a workshop called Untethered.

And you and I got to get together in Dallas. Laura couldn't be there, but you were just like creating in the flowers and, and just loving the process. And it's a really beautiful thing to watch. So. My question finally get to a question here. Have you always loved the process of creating, or was it something you kind of had to grow into over time?

Or maybe you feel like it ebbs and flows? I mean, I think it definitely ebbs and flows. But I also feel like it was something that I really had to lean into and think about. You know, how did I wanna create growing up my mom was an artist. Hmm. Um. And you would think that me and my sisters would all be these incredible artists because she did art with us.

Like she was very great about, you know, pulling out the things and doing, you know, there were always art projects and but I never felt like I was a great artist. And maybe just because as a child I'm looking at what she's creating and what I'm creating and I'm like, oh, like there's no way I can ever make that right.

And still to this day I could not. Yeah. But always feeling like I wasn't an artist or couldn't be an artist, really took a lot of time for me to embrace that. Like, there's different kinds of art, you know, that photography is an art and that the way we're shooting is an art and that we can incorporate art into our work.

Has been, has definitely been a process. So, so your mom, just so people know your mom, is it She is really remarkable. When I was, we were in Dallas, uh, Kate took Laura and I over to this studio that has some of her mom's work. What, what kind of, what is the work that she does though? Remind me. I can visualize it, but like, what is it called?

She does mostly colored pencil and it's a lot of like, still life. So she really loves like, fruit in bowls. And she also, she does a lot of wildlife too, like flowers or not flowers. She does do flowers. Uh, but birds, she loves drawing birds. Um, she used to do a lot of watercolor and watercolor scares the crap outta me.

I, I don't know why. Like, I don't even know how to begin to play with it, you know, like I play, I started a little bit during COVID when we were stuck at home. Um, and I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. But I've, I have, since then, I haven't made time to Have you ever sat down with her to be like, mom, show me how to do this.

No. Isn't that funny? Like, she's literally right there and you're like, yeah, no, not a relationship. Right? Yeah. And she lives like five minutes from the studio. Right. Very close. And teaches And your mom teaches and teaches. Yeah. Yeah. But you're like, no, no, no. I got this mom, I'll do this on my own. Yeah. Like, this is my art and that's your art.

And we just keep it separate. Yeah. That's so funny. And I know you two are really close, so that is, yeah, that is really funny. So I do feel like when people look at your work though, it's, you have created like a really standout, I don't, I don't know if you know that, but you know, your, your work does stand out.

Like, I think if I saw suddenly in like a magazine or or if I see it online, I'm immediately, before I even see your handle. I'm like, yeah, that's, that's Kate. So what part of yourself then really shows up most clearly in your brand? Like your, your upbringing, your maybe your mom, or kind of the things that you researched, you know, to, to learn photography?

Yeah. Right out of high school that summer I started working at a studio. So I think I was really, you know, like kind of brought up in that photography industry. You know, it was film back then. We shot on house blogs, we sent the film out you know, and all of the work back then, like, people were shooting on backdrops with these beautiful studio lights and it was all very, very, very posed, very traditional.

And I would sit there, you know, on our down during down times and just like, flip through the PPA loan books mm-hmm. And study the posing and the light and you know, it had that very fine art kind of a look to it. But then as I. Grew in my own work trying to figure out, you know, how do I incorporate my love for that kind of a look.

As well as like when I was a kid, like my mom always had art coffee table books throughout the house. I loved going to the library and looking through all the ballet books. Not even like the kid ballet books, but like going to the nonfiction section and pulling them from the shelves. Um, and just studying the posing.

I just thought it was so beautiful. And you know, and then learning how to find light like my mom did when we were kids. She would give us these like little Swarovski crystal figurines, um, because she collected them. And so like every anniversary of birthday, my dad would get her one and she would, every once in while she would pull some down and let us hold them in the sunshine and sit there and like let the light shine through them so we could find the rainbows and create little patterns with the light.

And, um. So as I've gotten older, I think a lot of those things play into that, um, into what the work is today. Yeah. Well, I think definitely, I mean, your work, I feel like it's it's truly a study in portraiture, but in a modern way, you know, where you do pay attention to hand and feet and the position of the face and the, and the, the light.

But I think, you know, some people would've looked at those PPA loan books, and I think people do, even now, especially the ones, you know, in the like late nineties when like you and I were looking at them and would be like, oh, I don't, I want something different. I want it to feel more organic. You have learned from that and then made it your own by making it more, you know, uh, have that organic touch or that feel of like Yeah.

Realness. Yeah. Like I still want it to feel real and I guess just adding a little bit of relaxation to it know, so it doesn't feel. How do I do it? Yeah. How do you do that? How do you do something that feels, like portraiture when I say that, like, it's like Yeah, yeah. Individual, single one and make it, like, breathe life into it.

So it still feels like a moment or because I have anxiety and I tell my clients this too. Like, I need to remember to take a breath because I will just go, go, go, go, go. I'm, you know, I'm in a session and I'm full of ideas and I'm just running with these ideas and sometimes I have to stop and remember to pause.

And so, and you can tell when a client starts to get real kind of stiff, right? Like, you put them in a pose and they're trying so hard to hold it. Mm-hmm. And as they're holding, shoulders go up, come up and mm-hmm. They're holding their breath. And so I'll say, you know, just pause for a second. I'm like, let's take a deep breath together.

And relax our shoulders, you know, so as we're breathing, exhaling, you know, and you get a lot of that from like, like I used to do a lot of yoga and so, you know, it's just remembering to exhale and relax as you do that. So you just make you do it literally. Yeah. Right. Like we all do it, like, yeah. Just take a deep breath.

Yeah. And we all just kind of pause and relax a little bit. So. Yeah. I love that. I also find, I know you probably do too, I think as the session goes on, let's say you're photographing like a, a maternity client and, and at first there are a little bit of a bundle of nerves and then, you know, you just kind of, uh, I mean, I, I know that when I know my client is relaxed, I always have music going.

I'm sure you do too. They kind of start to move to the music a little bit as I'm like changing a lens, you know, and they're kinda like dancing around and, and you know, you probably play fun music. And I play said, you probably play fun music. And I have like, mix relaxing, like piano music.

I just play music that I like and, and hope that they do too. Sometimes I'll ask like, do you, especially when it's a maternity session for, for, for newborn and family, I keep it a little bit quieter because I don't want the kids to get too rambunctious.

If it's just a child, I'll, I'll ask them and we end up playing a lot of Let it Go. But for maternity, what do you like, like what makes you feel sexy? You know? Yeah, yeah. You know, and then they'll kind of start moving to it and I'm like, we're there, we're there. You know? I love that. Yeah. Those are all really good.

Those are really, really good tips. And I think the whole process of slowing down, I mean, that, that really is in your nature, even though you know, you say Yeah, you know, you do have anxiety at times and we have to sort of feel a little performative during a session because it's our job to make our client feel comfortable.

Other than like taking a breath, is there, I'm trying to think of other things that, that I've done. Even if it's just like take a, let's like take a five minute break and have a sip of water. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, reminding both them and myself to take a drink of water, you know? Yeah. 'cause we all need that.

We can't just go nonstop for an hour. Yeah. Also, You know, I mean if you think back to the film days, we only had 12 shots on a roll. Yeah. And so we had to be, we had to slow down and be very intentional about how we're shooting. Yeah. Um, and I'm guilty of it just as much as anybody, you know, we just like shoot and pray that you got one.

But I'm like, if I'll catch myself, I know that I've got the shot, they're post exactly how I want it and I take one. I'm like, we're gonna take two more just in case. Which is then nightmare. Yeah. Focus for, yeah. Which is then a calling nightmare later because I have to look at all three shots of every single post, but.

And you photographed weddings also for a long time as sadan. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like with, with weddings you kind of, so weddings is really fast paced. I think weddings is a great place for photographers to learn how to shoot because it's really fast paced. You have to know your camera really well, and

you have to learn how to predict what's going to happen next. Yeah, absolutely. And, and kind of move through those frames without, yeah. Without creating a cuing nightmare. Like you could show up to a wedding and just, you know, and just, you could take 10,000 at the wedding, but nobody wants to narrow down all, no one wants to, you know, and I think, and your client doesn't wanna see all those.

Right, exactly. What do you call down to, like what's your what, what number of images do you typically call to? My goal for a full session is 100. A hundred. Okay. And really that's because that's how many fit in the little gold box. Yeah. Isn't that funny? I do tell. Yeah, I, I end up usually at like right at 70, like when I go through it a second time, I might be a little over a hundred and then I'll go and I'll take out duplicates and I end up right around 70.

But I think to me more is not, and, and I think a hundred is great too, but I don't, more, to me is not always better for our clients. No, no. I think it's, it can be overwhelming really quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I wanna talk a little bit, about branding,

I think something that you have talked about a few times is you want a client to feel something when they look at your work, right? So like, when they go to your website or they see you online or you know, wherever, wherever they're seeing you that you want them to be like, I wanna work with her.

How are you, how are you doing that? Like, what's the feeling that you really want them to get when they see your work? I want them to feel a sense of calmness. Mm-hmm. And stillness and that. And to see that, you know, while we can create those really beautiful post photos mm-hmm. And images that so much of the beauty.

Really lies in those in-between moments, you know? So, and I still try and capture those too, you know, like you know, like, I like to do a lot of images that capture the connection that a parent has with their child. You know, whether it's like a dad holding a daughter's hand, or, I recently photographed two sisters and I had them dancing, and it wasn't until I really zoomed in on one of the images and I could see their hands, like they had just let go from a twirl and their hands were just pulled away from each other.

Yeah. Just in, I was like, that connection right there, right. Like, yeah. It was so good. And they're still so close, but not quite touching, you know, not quite one. So that makes me think that it's not even just in this session and, and how you're shooting, but also being really good at calling. Being really good at selecting and editing, like, which images are really telling that story.

Yeah. And being thoughtful about that process. Yeah. And you know, I mean, 'cause like that was a full, a full frame shot and it was, I had to really zoom in to see that. Right. And then once, once I saw it, I'm like, this is it. And wishing that I'd actually photographed it closer up. Yeah. But I could never have recreated that moment.

You know, it's, we're documenting moments as they happen and yes, you know, we're providing prompts and trying to create a scenario that we want to photograph. But you can't, you can't create a connection if there isn't one already there. Right. Right. You can't, you can't fake it. Right, right. I've had people, sometimes show up and I think it, you know, for me it just, I hadn't won this particular person.

I, I had not won her trust yet. we had never photographed, uh, I don't, I, I can't remember where she found me, but my guess is it probably wasn't a referral. And she showed up with like Pinterest photos and like a printout of all these Pinterest photos. And I do like to see inspiration. I think that's fun.

You know, like what, you know, what do you have in your mind's eye? Like I love to see that piece of it, but when it comes down to it, it's still our vision. But she showed up with them and she really just wanted to copy them. I was just like a tool. I was just a tool at that point. And, and that's, that's, um, it's kind of a difficult spot to be in.

And so I just had to shoot that, you know, and be like, okay, but then let's also, and like win her trust and be like, let's fall out of this process and allow some of this to happen organically so that these images mean more to you. Right. They're more meaningful and they're not, when you're trying to copy a Pinterest photo, there's no way it's ever going to be exactly the same.

There's no way you can fully copy the light and the pose. You know, like their body is different and their hands might, you know, like somebody can't bring in a photo of a professional model with these beautiful, like ballerina hands and they're pregnant and their hands are swollen, like they're just not going right.

Right.

and you don't want them to be disappointed. So it's just trying to think, you have to convince them that, let's work off of these as inspiration as opposed to trying to copy the verbatim. Yeah. another question for you that kind of popped into my head just then.

you have an established business. You've been in business how long? Like 20 years. Right? Not on my own. When did you, when did you like officially launch? This is Kate Marie portraiture. I think it was 2018. 2019. Oh, okay. And prior to that, prior to that you were working with photographers? I was working for two other photographers and then I had a business partner for three years. Okay. So we were shooting all the time.

I think when we are growing a business, we can get. In a hurry for that part. And all of our attention turns to that and it's really, it's necessary, right? I mean, I'm sure you would agree. Like we do have to spend some time in that business mode and kind of figure out, you know, where we wanna go with it.

But it's challenging to split focus between art and business. I, I, maybe other, other people may be like, no, that's totally easy for me. But I find it's really hard to compartmentalize those two things because they are so different to me. Yeah. And if we're really focused on the business part, we can lose focus of the goal, which I think you would probably agree.

The goal is to create the most beautiful work, for the person who's standing right in front of us in that moment, like that one person versus performing for an Instagram carousel post. Like we have to do things for the business and create portfolio work. Uh, but we also, when we're working with a client, we really have to focus on that person, which I think you're probably really good at.

So, have you always been connected to that piece of, like, that's always what I am focused on is just creating for this person? Or how did you sort of split your attention between I have to grow this business and figure out a brand for myself, but also make sure that I'm showing up creatively and inspired for a client?

I really hate the business side of it really.

Yeah. And I know that you really love it, but to me, like the business part is secondary. Mm-hmm. Um, showing up and creating art for my clients has always been my first priority. And it just so happened that I could create a business from it. Um, but I, I really hate it. If I could have somebody run all of the business pieces and I would just show up and create the art, I would be as happy as it could be.

Yeah. I actually really, I actually, I do enjoy the business side mainly because I, especially right now, because I really like coaching other people through it and getting them to a point where they can kind of, that this, the business does become secondary. Mm-hmm. That's always kind of the goal, right?

Like, we shouldn't be running a business that takes up so much of our space in our head that we can't really love and, uh, the, the photography piece and like show up really creatively for that. Right. So it's like, right. Yeah. Otherwise you'll burn out. You can't show up to a session and not feel inspired.

I mean, there are days I, you know, where you do like, you can. Do art in and out nonstop. All day every day. No, you can't. How do you, how do you work around that?

if you are hoping, if you are hoping to show up creative, but you also still have a business to run, what are like the boundaries? What are the systems? Like, what are the things that you have in place to protect your, your creativity?

'cause you are, you know, you're also a mom. You've got two kids. Yeah. They're really active and busy. You've got a husband, we're cooking dinner all the time. it's not even like, it's just the business. There's a thousand things that we have to work on all the time. How do you protect that? The busier my kids have gotten, the more I've had to be very intentional and set a lot of boundaries around the business.

You know, because I, the idea of ever having to miss something that they really want me to be at mm-hmm. Breaks my heart. Um. Not, which is hard with sports sometimes, because I might put schedule something three months out, like for fall. Right. And you don't get a sports schedule until like three weeks before.

Sometimes not even. I have, I have clients always texting me in like August asking about fall sessions. I'm like that, not yet, not until I know everybody's schedule. I just can't. I know. And so, um, I have, you know, there's five workdays. Like I don't work weekends anymore for the most part. Yeah. Sadie dances Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday.

So I'm out all day Saturday for That.

so I will only, I take sessions on the days where I'm not taking her to dance, so that way I don't feel super exhausted and burned out. So my work from home days are Monday, Wednesday, sometimes Friday and then my studio days are Tuesday, Thursday. Sometimes Friday, Friday's like a wild card day.

Was it, was it hard to make that decision? Because I think sometimes I'll, I will, when I'm, especially when I'm working with a coaching student and they're in a position of, of like, I don't feel like I have the luxury to, they just wanna grow their business, so. Right. And so you wanna open the door to their business and be like, whenever, whenever you're available, that's when I'm available.

What have you learned about what happens when you actually put that boundary in place? You know, I thought there would be a lot of pushback. Mm-hmm. And there really wasn't. I just, you know, somebody inquires about a session and we start talking about when, and I just say, I am in the studio Tuesday, Thursday, Friday.

Would either of these dates work? And yeah. Very rarely. I mean, they may ask like, yeah, oh, like, do you happen to have a weekend? And I'm like, I really don't, I'm not available on the weekends. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, and usually though, if they say, okay, like, well, we can, we can make it work on this day. Right. So, right.

Yeah, I, I have found the same thing. I actually learned that when I was running the retail studio, because when we first opened it, you know, and I've got the, all these photographers working for me. When we first opened it based on the retail lease, we were really supposed to be open from like, I don't know, 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM seven days a week.

Oh. And I went back to them and I was like, that I, we, we don't want to, and our business really isn't necessary to do that. We, we did do quite a bit of that because then we would do ordering meetings in the evening and, you know, and had this sort of ebb and flow. And I also noticed that the, I had a pure bar, no, not a, a barre three next door to me, and they closed the times throughout the day.

They didn't offer classes all day long. So we, so we were open all the time and sessions would just schedule wherever, wherever they wanted, where whatever was convenient for them. And then I started to kind of slowly pull back on on that specific business and say. Okay. First of all, this doesn't work for my payroll because I've got somebody, you know, shooting a session at 9:00 AM and then shooting another session at 12 and they're literally sitting around or one.

Right. And they may, they may call and edit and even deliver a gallery in that timeframe, but then they're sitting around for a while with nothing to do. So we realized we really had to put boundaries around the, the time, the days and times that were available. And so we started to, we, I just figured out a way to sort of rig that in our booking system.

And I started to tell my, my front desk person, I'm like, you, this is how you're gonna schedule things. And instead of saying when, when are you available? She just gave the dates and online it would only have those dates and times that were available. And we found that people just made it work. And I was it really They wanted bad enough.

Yeah. If they wanted bad enough, they'll make it work. Mm-hmm. And. If they don't, then they will find somebody else who is available. And at that point it becomes like they're, they don't necessarily want you for your work. They want somebody who can be available when they are. Right. Right. And, and I don't wanna be that either.

Yeah. And the golden Ticket is building a business that people specifically want you, not because of price or your availability or, right. Yeah.

So speaking of boundaries, you know, and really realizing for ourselves, like, oh, I actually do, I'm the owner of the business.

I can make my own decisions for this business. And, and, and it actually works out really well. I think that's something that people get really nervous about when they're growing a business. With that in mind, did you have a moment where, like a pivotal moment when you were like, I have to make a decision that is going to completely shift how I run my business?

Yes. I was running I think for two or three years I had a business partner and so we were running, um, the photography business together. It actually, actually started out as a client wanted to learn photography, so I was teaching her, um, and at the time I was working a full-time job. And it was really hard to run that business on my own all of the time outside of that job.

Mm-hmm. Um, because I still had. Two little kids at home. Um, and so I'm like, you know, it'd be really great to have a partner. So we started working together and we would shoot most of our sessions together. And at some point, you know, I started, it was before I really learned how to run my cost of doing business.

we had to have a little meeting and I said, you know, we have to raise our prices because I see this as more of my career. Like, it's not just a side thing for me. Like, I want to be able to do this full-time and I need to be able to leave my full-time job to make that happen. Yeah. And you know, she at the time was a stay at home mom and she just wanted a little bit of fun money to play with and she wasn't confident enough in her work at the time to charge as much as I knew we needed to.

And so we decided to split ways. She ran her own business and I took mine. Um, I hired a business mentor to help me figure out how to run my cost of business, of doing business. And, and that was so eye-opening to have somebody walk me through, you know, every single little piece. It was like, you know, are you making sure that you're saving some for retirement?

And are you saving for you know, are you going to have funds set aside for when you need a new computer or your camera breaks? You know, and how to set, you know, how much do I need to set aside for taxes and how much do I take home and how much goes back into the business? And so, you know, I was trying to figure out, you know, how can I do all of that?

And so that was at the point where I kind of shifted my business to be, to mimic more of like a luxury model business. Mm-hmm. To, and I knew that, you know, I'd have to take less clients and. Charge more. You know, I mean, you know, as a person, like we never want to be charging more, you know, we're not trying to rip people off, which I've been accused of doing.

Like, that's not my goal, it's just that I want to run a high touch business and you can't do that with a high volume, you know? Right. Yeah. And so we, I really had to, to shift mentally and physically and, you know, because I needed to bring in the amount of money to replace the salary that I was making before.

Yeah. when you made that change, did you like have to double your prices, triple your prices? It was probably about quadruple. Oh, that's hard, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And you know that you're gonna lose all your clients. Yes. You know, I mean, a client that is, that was paying that much isn't going to be mentally prepared for a jump that big.

You know, even if you are able to provide, you know, they're just, it's just a different set of clients. I did have some clients, a couple that that move has had moved along with me, which has been so sweet. Yeah. And wonderful, you know, to see that they still value my work. Mm-hmm. Um, and are willing to pay what I need to charge to do that.

And so that was really amazing. But yeah, it was really hard. No, I think, and it can play a huge mind games with you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because you start sending out your pricing and every single time, like I would cringe as I would send that email. Mm-hmm. They're not gonna book. Right. And I would send it out and then he'd follow up and they'd respond.

And it's like, like we, it's, that's not in our budget right now. And I would have to just remind myself like, it's not personal, it's business. Right. You know, like they're not booking you because they don't like you or they don't like your work. Mm-hmm. It's business. It's, they can't afford it at the moment.

And that's okay. You know, we've all done. That's right. Right. Because if you want to be able to afford the life that you need for your family, you can't always undercut yourself. And I think that's where photographers sometimes get it wrong, is they're accidentally undercutting themselves before even trying to find the client who can afford their rates.

Whether that's low, medium, or high. Because I, I'm telling, and I tell this to people all the time, when we ran, um, when I was running the retail studio, we were, I would say like. Mid-range. Like you, you could come in and spend a few hundred dollars with us on like a little mini session. Uh, but we, you weren't really getting a lot for it, but it was like, just enough for those people.

They're like, I literally just want a handful of photos. And then, and then I would say our full sessions were probably mid range. what I found was that even having that lower range, or being in the mid-range, we still had people telling us that we were too expensive just as often as we had people.

As I have people telling me now that, that I'm not affordable for them right now. Maybe one day they'll wanna work with me or for something that's bigger, or maybe when they finish, you know, growing their family, they're like, okay, then we'll invest in you. Right people, there are people that can afford you at all price ranges and there are people that cannot afford you at all price ranges, no matter what you're charging.

Like I would love to ask somebody, I'm sure we could get somebody on this podcast that's like, I charge $250 and I still get told that I'm too expensive. Oh, absolutely. All the time. I mean, and you know, it's like, I think I learned, like when I was looking at redoing our yard you know, or you're getting quotes for certain things around your house.

Mm-hmm. Most of the time when you start that process, you have no idea how much that's going to cost. Right. And so. You know, it can, it, there can be some sticker shock right there, you know, even if you have, you know, usually when they're starting to inquire or look into it, they have a number in mind that they think it's going to be, or that they're hoping to stick to, and then they actually get, you know, find out how much it does cost.

And that can be surprising and it may not be in their budget at the moment. And that's okay. You know, I've had some clients that tell me they save all year long to have a session with me. And I just think that is so special. You know, it's not a drop in the bucket for them, like it's a big deal. Um, but yeah, a lot of the time it is, those clients just don't even know what to expect when it comes to pricing.

Right. And then it's our job. I know we talk a lot about value and our brand is supposed to project value, and I think that's, that's a hard thing to communicate and. Part of me, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Part of me thinks that, you know, value. Value is something, especially when it comes to photography, it's, it's something that either our clients really, really want and love.

Like they, they are, they're so in love with their family at that moment. They are, they're, they don't want the moment to pass by. I've actually found more clients with slightly older kids. I always thought like, oh, it's like the newborn phase. 'cause that's such a timeline. But even, you know, when my kids got into middle school and high school, I was like, I want, I need, like, there, my whole world is about to change and I just, I need all the photos and I just, I wanna document this time and I want all the trips and I want, and I just wanna spend all of our savings on, on capturing all of these memories.

Memories. Right? Whether I can afford it or not doesn't, it's suddenly not even a question to me. I, the affordability is completely out the window because it's just what I feel and what I need right now. And, and then you could have somebody who has. All the money in the bank, all the money, and they're kinda like, eh, I am just not feeling it right now.

Yeah. I'm just, and there's no, like, do you think there's a, there's a conversation that has to be had and you're gonna be able to convince somebody to afford you? Or do you think like they either come to the table understanding the value of what you do and the value of the photos before they got there?

That's a tough one, right? Because we're guessing that's a tough one. I feel like it's almost 50 50 probably. Yeah. Maybe 70 30. That most people when they come, or maybe by the time that they decide to pull the trigger and shoot, you know, schedule the session do value what we Do. but there are those people who, you know that it's just not feasible for them, even if they do value it.

And a lot of times it is educating on, you know, why, why we're doing what we're doing is valuable. And like, like you sent me that little clip earlier from a call that you had done. You know, it's, it's about how we can make them feel. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, like right now we having older kids, we feel that we need to freeze time in this very moment and that, you know, that time is fleeting and that they're not going to be in our homes anymore for that much longer.

Right. And, you know, and when they're little, it's, we want to document those times before they grow out of it. You know, you know, a newborn is only a newborn for a few weeks. Right. And, you know, your toddler grows into, from a preschool, goes from a, a preschooler to an elementary schooler in the blink of an eye.

Mm-hmm. And you know. While we know that as moms, we have to be reminded that, you know, the days are long. But the years are short. Yeah. And and they really are. They know. They really are. And you don't realize that that never really hits until your kids are older. Yeah. And, and you're just like, oh, yeah. Yeah.

It's like you don't, I I, we had to be careful about what, you know, what we say to a client. 'cause they'll be like, I know, I know. Everyone tells me that, but right now my days are like so long. Like you don't know. Right. I'm like, I know you are in the weeds. You're in the weeds. Yeah. Newborns and toddlers.

And you're touched out at the end of the day. Yeah. But one day you'll be like begging them to come snuggle with you. Yeah. Well, and like the disorganization, sometimes when I look at, like, the photos that I do have, and, you know, my, my oldest is a senior this year and I'm like wanting to pull all these photos to create like, I don't know, a slideshow for something or something for her.

You know cheer team or whatever. And I'm like, gosh, I like the, the disorganization. Like I, I, oh yeah. Wish I just had like what I've created for my clients in some ways. Like just, oh yeah, my personal stuff is a mess. It's all I do. Oh yeah. It's a disaster. And most of it's on my iPhone and so like, I just.

Yesterday I was looking for pictures for Bennett's birthday and I'm like, I had to go to Google Photos and say like, find this person. Right? Yeah. Oh, it's, so we're in like photo overload, which I think actually a little, little detour here. I think that's where sometimes photographers feel, and maybe even sometimes our clients feel like they have so much photo overload, but you know, that, like, why, how can we put value on something that we already have so much of?

But I think the experience of having someone else love on your family in that way is totally incomparable to, to, you know, just grabbing your iPhone and taking some photos or not allowing yourself to be in that moment versus pulling it, you know? Yeah. And that's something else I've been trying to be better at, is allowing myself to be in the moment and not constantly trying to document it with my phone.

Right. Because that's just, as you know, it's, it's more important to actually be present right. Than it's to. Be trying to capture a photo of it all, knowing that you weren't actually paying attention to what was happening. Right. Yeah. I hate, I hate being at my kids' events and sitting there with my phone up in front of my face trying to, and like viewing it, viewing what they're doing through my phone.

Like, I'm like, no, I wanna put it down, put it away, and actually be in the moment. Yes. And then hire, Sadie wants me to record everything. Yeah. Hire a photographer then to do the rest. I can't, I can't document those little moments like, you know, my hand holding my daughter's hand or you know, like.

My son snuggled up under my chin. Not that he's, he's too tall for that now, but you know, that's funny. La la too. Wait, was it last summer? I had, um, a good friend of mine who was also a student in my coaching program, Suzanne Karp, she came down, to where we were staying in California and did photos of us, on the beach.

And it was so important to me 'cause it was like, I grew up going to that beach and I wanna take the kids there and document us there. And one of the photos that I really had to get and she did was Owen had gotten to this habit, he's so tall now, he'd gotten the habit of him putting his chin on top of my head versus the other way around.

And, and I was like, that, that for whatever reason, like that was something that I'm like, just, just get that. Like, and I think I pulled him into the pose and I was like, just put your head there. You know, like, just made it happen. That that is something that even though we made it happen in that moment, like it was so precious to me because that's something he does all the time and it's such a different stage of life for us to be in where it's an everyday moment for you that you still wanted to document, right?

Yeah, exactly. So, um, going into a little bit of the, you know, part of the way you answered that question that I had before about like that pivotal moment, part of it was in, in realizing that you needed to create a high service model. I am, by the way, I'm getting out of trying to get away from calling it luxury because I would like that too.

Right, because I feel like, first of all, people are not searching for luxury photography. No, that's not an SEO keyword. Right? It's not something they're searching for. What I think people actually want to find is something service they trust, somebody they can connect with. Someone who wants to like, spend the time on creating, creating a great experience.

And for some reason, I feel like our industry has gotten in the habit of calling it luxury. And I'm like, I dunno that that's, I don't know that that's right. But we can come back to that maybe. 'cause I think that could be kinda an interesting conversation by point is that I think when people shift from like just like shoot and burn or what do we call it now?

Shoot and share. From a shoot and we call it shoot and burn anymore. People don't shoot and burn anymore. So like, I don't know if people call, you're right, we don't burn it to see d don't burn it anymore. Yeah. So I think it's now, shoot, I think it like shows our, our, like we're call Old France, it's called Experience Skate in the business.

But I think they think it's going to take up more time. It's gonna take up more of their time to be a high service model. Have you found that shifting from that more like having to have more clients to fewer clients, but more high touch. Which one do you think, where do you think your time was split and like, how do you think that affected your time and how you show up in your business?

Oh, I think it, I spend way less time with fewer clients and a higher touch experience. Because there's still back and forth communication via email, right? Like, we're trying to schedule things, we're trying to coordinate hair and makeup, we're trying to find out more about their family. We're trying to, you know, put together outfits.

But I was still getting those questions from, um, from my other clients when I was at a lower price point. Mm-hmm. You know, there was still a lot of back and forth. Um, so now I'm, I'm doing a lot less culling and editing because when I was, you know, when you're shooting at a lower price point, you have more clients, you're multiplying the amount of work that you have because, you know, only 10% of 10% of our time is, I have a cold, sorry.

10% of our time is behind the camera. Well, 90% is on the computer. Mm-hmm. Calling, editing, delivering the gallery, sending emails admin work. And so, you know, I'm either spending less time or the same amount with fewer clients than I was. With more. Yeah, that's what I have found also. There were that it, it helped to actually create more balance.

And I think, you know, I, with my first time clients, like somebody, like if somebody hired me today for a newborn session, I'd be like, Hey, let's make sure that we're hopping on a phone call or meeting in person. Let's go over, I wanna get on the same page with them. But once somebody is a repeat client, which is really the goal, right?

I mean, the goal is to have at least for me, fewer new clients, but some, because you have to keep that rotation in of, of new people. But for the most part, I'm serving the majority of the same clients every year and they just, they just get it. Like they already know. They know. Yeah. Their repeat clients are so easy because you don't have to explain the process.

Right. They usually know what they want. Um, like I have some clients who don't even care to come and pick out their own clothes. They're like, just bring something and I'll wear it. And Are you, I'll bring a couple. Uh, yeah. I, one, I'll have clients just like text me because I have a pretty, my wardrobe is only for maternity.

Yeah. Which is all studio. And, um, so for, for my family clients, you know, they were just texting me. They're like, this is what I'm thinking. And they're like laying it out. And they don't, they don't even book. I'm always like, you can book a call with me. They're like, nah, I'm good here. I'm just gonna text you a bunch of photos.

Yeah. And I tell clients they can text me too. I'm like, don't like it. Not everything has to be via email. If I don't respond to your text, then please email me. Right. Because I feel like I have a million texts every day. And I just can't keep up. But like, it doesn't bother me for you to send me your outfits.

Yeah. I wanna see it. I'll respond. I gotten really good about boundaries with my e with my texts years ago. Like, before I had the retail business and I was, you know, working out of a small studio and just kinda had my own thing. I always felt the pressure that if somebody texted me at like 11 o'clock at night, I, or 10 or whatever, I was still awake.

I couldn't help it. I was like, I'm gonna forget, but I just mark it as unread. I might read it. Oh. But I go back and I mark it as unread and I'm like, I can, I, I'll respond tomorrow.

I don't think my clients, my client texted me at 10 o'clock at night because that's what was convenient for her. Right. They're not expecting a response right away. Right. They're not expecting anything. And so I just, I might, I might look at it, but, or I, or I don't even see it, but I'll just mark it as unread and then, and then I will respond in the morning when I, when I, yeah.

I will mark things unread too, but just in case they miss it. I forget to go back. Somebody pointed out that you can, on the iPhone you can say like, schedule for later or something. Yeah. Yeah.

you know, I do think that figuring out that balance, and like I said before, you've got kids, you've got a business that's growing, creating art.

I was thinking about this this morning. So when this, when this podcast airs I think it'll be probably October. I need to look to see. It'll probably be the beginning of October. Everyone will be going into their busy season and wondering about their life choices. What is something that you are doing during your busy season?

This could be in your personal life or in your work life, but what are you doing to keep yourself from getting like, just that like crazy. I'm just gonna keep booking everything I can because I just wanna bring money in right now, especially after the, the year that we've all had in 2025. It's been generally slower.

Slower. I mean, I think, you know, having those boundaries, which I'm not even sure I'd say they're boundaries, but having such a limited availability to be able to shoot sessions mm-hmm. It makes it a lot easier to say no. Like I can only take so many sessions a week. Yeah. And so, you know, if you need to put in boundaries you do that if.

I remember a year or two ago, I was really, really busy one fall. And so I was like, you know, I was just taking all the sessions. I was scheduling 'em, scheduling them in every single day. And what I realized, I'm like, oh my God, like when am I gonna edit these, all these sessions? Mm-hmm. And so then like, I live and die by my Google calendar.

So then I would start, I would, if I am shooting a session this day, I block off all of the next day to call and edit. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I make sure that there's calling and editing time scheduled in on the calendar for each and every session so that I cannot overbook myself. That's your hack right there.

Yeah. And I, you know, putting that on the calendar, because that's work time, right? It's just as important to schedule that as it is a client session. And so remembering to put it on your calendar because I'm not a super disciplined person, I, you know, if something's gonna happen, it has to be on the calendar.

Yeah. I would probably classify you as a people pleaser. You don't want to tell people No, but if the availability just isn't there because you can actually visually see that I've gotta do this, and then, you know, I mm-hmm. I gotta get Sadie to dance and I've gotta get my son to this.

And I, and I have this time for calling and Yeah. And it's like, I am just not, the time is gone. Time is finite. Yep. My availability isn't until a month out or whenever that might be. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Okay. Last two questions for you to kind of wrap up our whole conversation here. If you could thank your past self, let's say like 10, 15 years ago for a choice that she made that you're grateful for today, what would it be

10, 15 years ago?

I think always being willing to to know that there's, we don't know everything, no matter how many years of experience that we have, and that continuing education is really important. And so, you know, taking the time, you know, it used to be every year I would invest in some sort of education or workshop or just something to help me, you know, relight that creative fire.

and now it's probably more like every other year or so. Mm-hmm. but just. You know, like always being willing to learn and to look outside the box and see how can I continue to be inspired has made a big difference. Yeah, I think that shows up in your work and yeah, it shows up in how well you know your camera, how well you know, light, and it's really easy to get burnout over the years and, you know, it's, you need to know when to take a break.

And so I've been really good about like I schedule time. Like I said, I live and die by that Google calendar and so like all of my kids' activities are in the calendar. I make sure like every October, even though it's my busiest time of the year and I don't really have time for it, my sisters and I, over that long holiday weekend in October, we all take a beach trip, with our families and that's like a non-negotiable.

It's on the calendar and it happens every year. You know, making sure that I schedule time away for family vacations. Um, because again, if you don't put it on the calendar, you'll forget that you need to do it, and then you're booked and you don't have time for it. So just, you know, remembering to take the time out, not just for your family, but for yourself too.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. I am the queen of going in and blocking off time as soon as I start to see that my calendar, let's say for October, you know, we're at the beginning of September right now, so looking at October, actually last night before I sent my calendar out, I was like, block, block, block.

'cause I know I'm going to need it and I'll appreciate it. Whereas yeah, my younger self might not. I don't know that I would've done that back then. No. Okay. So here's the follow up question. Oh, okay. Uh, if your future self 10 years from now could thank you for one choice you're making, that you're making now currently, what will it be?

I think it would be protecting my family's time. Mm. Yeah. Just like you just described actually, right? Yeah. Vacation. Always take the vacation. I think that's what always take the vacation. Yeah. Is that the name? Uh, is that gonna be the name of this podcast? Always Take the vacation. Always take the vacation.

You should end every episode with that. Yeah. Always take the vacation once slogan, which I don't know where I got it from. I saw it somewhere. It's not mine. I would love to accredit it to something if anybody knows. But it's, and I've got it written in a couple of places. It's, life is beautiful. Let's not spend the whole time working.

Yes. You know? And so that's where our boundaries, I mean, everything we just talked about, our boundaries, our uh, the systems that we put into our business, our little hacks, like blocking the calendar and making sure we protect that time, learning and growing. All of those things. All of those things. Well, thank you Kate for spending some time with me and you.

So much trust goes into deciding to let somebody interview you and trusted me, and I appreciate it. But I also knew that, you know, he, you gave me all the questions to noodle on. Yeah, yeah. And then I changed them all for you. Then he changed them and we didn't talk about being an introvert at all. Oh, yeah.

We didn't at all. You're okay. We can save that for another one. We'll save that for another one. But just to like, let, let's bring, let's close that gap real quick for people. So I, because there's something that I realized when I asked you that. Was about, like, I had, I had posed I knew Kate would wanna at least know something about what we're talking about.

I think it's kind of only fair. So last night we were chatting about maybe some questions and you know, and like, what really resonates with you? Are there any stories here? And one of the questions kind of leads people to believe that Kate's an introvert, which you, I I think you tech by the technical definition, I think you're an extroverted introvert where you can put yourself out there and you can talk, but you might need to, to refuel yourself.

But what I realized is that, that's not what I noticed about you. It's that you're a good listener. Yeah. And it wasn't until, have you ever, have you ever done an Enneagram test? Do you know what you are? I, I forget what I am, but I'm the one that's, I'm the one that's like a, I get constantly distracted by it.

Like I know I'm a manifest generator in the human design, which means like, I constantly want, I need new ideas and new things going on. You know that? Oh yeah. So whatever that one is, I think it's like a seven, right? So I'm a nine, which craves like, it's a peacemaker. And so I crave peace and calm and stillness.

And once I realized that when I first took the test and I got that result, I was like, oh, no. Like that sounds lazy and that is not, you know? And I started diving into that a little bit more and I'm like, no. Like it's okay to want to crave that peace. And I want everybody to be at peace all the time, but I want everything internally to feel at peace too.

And so it's taking the time, like I love slow mornings and like I want to, I, I'll dive into work right away, but I want to be able to sip my tea or my coffee while I do that. I want to take a break to go enjoy flowers outside. But also learning that. I, you know, and I've always been a really good listener, but like, the reason I need the questions ahead of time is I don't always have a quick response because I want to sit and think about the question.

I want to hear what somebody has to say and then take time to actually process it before just spitting out an answer. Yeah. You know, so sometimes like, from what I've read, like sometimes Enneagram nines tend to come off stupid or dumb or just boring. But it's not that I don't have anything to say or that I don't have any thoughts, but I just wanna kind of like, just stew on it a little bit.

Mm-hmm. Well, I would call that being thoughtful, which intentionality. It shows up. Yeah. Intentional. Here we are coming full circle. You are intentional, I believe, in your relationships friendships with your kids, with your art. And with how you show up for people. All of it comes from a place of being thoughtful and Yeah, you're not gonna like Laura, and I'll be like, ba like, like talk, talk and, and you will, can I just sit back?

Can I just take it all in? You sit and listen and Laura and I will kind, we'll go in like circles about something and you're just like, okay, let me know when you're done. And I love every second of it. Yeah. I could listen to the two of you talk all day. I don't know how long we've been chatting here, but I do wanna see, it made me think about,

I remember when I became. At some point in motherhood where the kids were really little. I remember, well, okay, let me back up. I remember before I had children, people would always comment like, oh, you're pretty chill. Like, you're pretty relaxed. Like I, I never felt the need to have like big plans.

I was sort of, you know, like things to be a little bit spur of the moment. And, and I was always kind of like, just sort of quiet and calm in my environment. And then I had kids and I, and especially when I had me, uh, Reese and Owen are only like 16, 17 months apart. I forget. And you know it, that was a wild time.

Yeah. And I went from realizing, oh, I am not a calm person. I like calm environments. Yeah. I, I like to create space and calm in my life. Slow mornings. I like quiet evenings. I don't want to always have plans. I like to have, you know, weekends where I can just go for a walk if I feel like it. I wanna be sacral in my moments and motherhood for a little while when they're really little.

Kind of takes that from you because you're on their, their schedule. Yeah. There are no slow mornings and quiet evenings. No, there's none of that. That doesn't exist. I'm sure anyone who's listening to this right now is like, what are you talking about? So I, I couldn't have that when the kids were really, really little and I realized like, oh, that's where I get my, that's where I get fueled up, you know?

Mm-hmm. And can keep going and, and be creative and be there for people and present and Yeah. All of those things. And for so long, when you were running that high volume business, you didn't have that? No. No. So when I, I remember you tell you saying, oh, well. Because it was before you had officially decided to transition, and you were like, I could never run a business like you do.

And Yeah, it was in California. You're like, I mean, it's just so easy for me to run to the studio in the morning on a Saturday and shoot, and then I get to spend the afternoon with my family. Mm-hmm. And, and then three months later you said, that's it. I got rid of the studio, got rid of the associates. It's, we're just, we're doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. I, it took me, I, my nervous system was, was so out of whack, running that studio and it took me so long. And that's where I think, you know one of the podcasts that, that that people can go back to, I think it's titled, um, something about loneliness in business and, and it really focuses on like the top five people or groups of people that we need in our life and.

That to me is so important to have certain types of people in your life that are helping you in all the, the different facets that you have, like business, being a mom, whatever. And when you and Laura came into my life, you guys really were placed into my life by God in that moment because I needed people who were reminding me and showing me that, you know, slow down, slow down, family is important.

This is trying, you are going to learn really great things from that business. That business felt like a mistake at the time, but out on the flip side of it, I realized that it has, it has fueled my ability to coach and educate because I learned so much in that business. So I needed it, but it really wasn't for me.

It wasn't for me. And you guys came into my life at a really, really special time to show me like, you can do something different. It doesn't have to be what you think it needs to be. Right. You know? So thank you for that. You're a gift. You are. I'm so proud of you. Ah. I'm so proud of you. Well, thank you again, Kate.

Thanks for having me. Love you. Oh, it's so good to get to chat with you and, and, and just share your story 'cause I think you are such a gift to our community and you are always willing to share and give advice. And for those of you guys don't know, Kate does actually do some mentoring as well. Um, not on the business side 'cause it's not her favorite, but she loves to coach with like, editing and style and, and, and even branding, right?

Kinda helping people like develop and stick with that brand. Mm-hmm. Um, and really make it deeper. So please tell everybody where can they find you if they don't know you. If they're following me, they probably already know you, but, um, you can find me on Instagram at Kate Marie portraiture. Perfect. Yeah.

And then her website is all the website links and everything. All links on there. Yeah, exactly. All you need is Instagram, right? Yeah. That's all you need. Well, thank you, Kate. It was such a wonderful time to spend with you, and I appreciate you so much. Yes. Okay. Bye bye.

Thank you so much for joining Kate and I today. It was so lovely to get to talk to her and pick her brain a little bit about just this business and inspiration and running a business and balancing life, and I'm so glad that you got to hear directly from her 'cause she's such a wonderful resource. If you are enjoying this podcast, I would love for you to share it with others.

It is how podcasts grow. Leave a review. I appreciate you and your support of of this podcast, and until next week, we'll see you then.